| Re: Christian Apologists - Please Watch This and Tell Us Why it is wrong? posted ~ 12 hours ago (5/9/2012) | |
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 Post 53 of 58 Since 3/30/2012 | ' "If God created the material world, then shouldn't we hold him responsible for all the miseries and woes of mankind?" "We could", Einstein answered seriously, "if man hadn't been endowed with a free will. Every action of man is a function of his own or someone else's will. If so many people hadn't submitted their will to that of the Nazi's, there would have been no concentration camps." ' From "Einstein and the Poet: In search of the Cosmic Man" by William Hermanns - (bottom of page 58, top of page 59) Game, Set, and Match to Sabastious? |
| cantleave | Re: Christian Apologists - Please Watch This and Tell Us Why it is wrong? posted ~ 5 hours ago (5/9/2012) |
 Post 9115 of 9117 Since 6/25/2009 | Andrew Sh, you are saying that god provided man with Free Will and that makes the suffering and evil man's fault. |
Andrew Sh
JoinedPosts by Andrew Sh
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834
Christian Apologists - Please Watch This and Tell Us Why it is wrong?
by cantleave inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1bzp1wr234&feature=relmfu.
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Andrew Sh
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834
Christian Apologists - Please Watch This and Tell Us Why it is wrong?
by cantleave inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1bzp1wr234&feature=relmfu.
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Andrew Sh
Tootired2care,
I apologise. I thought better of it and removed it just before the 20 minute deadline, but not, unfortunately, before you had read it. Please pardon me.
In defence of Sab, though, I think he was just saying that Einstein was a believer in the existence of God. After all, it was a phrase he used more than once "God doesn't play dice with the world",
also
"My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality." Albert Einstein: The Human Side, p66 (1981 edition); ( en.wikiquote.org/wiki/albert_Einstein ).
Though that doesn't make Einstein a religious person in the Go to Church 3 times a week sense, it still means he is not an atheist. And the quote I have given again below and posted previously surely proves that Einstein would not agree with the thrust of the video that started this thread. In that sense, surely Einstein is on Sab's side, don't you agree? :-
Post 53 of 57
Since 3/30/2012' "If God created the material world, then shouldn't we hold him responsible for all the miseries and woes of mankind?"
"We could", Einstein answered seriously, "if man hadn't been endowed with a free will. Every action of man is a function of his own or someone else's will. If so many people hadn't submitted their will to that of the Nazi's, there would have been no concentration camps." '
From "Einstein and the Poet: In search of the Cosmic Man" by William Hermanns - (bottom of page 58, top of page 59)
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834
Christian Apologists - Please Watch This and Tell Us Why it is wrong?
by cantleave inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1bzp1wr234&feature=relmfu.
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Andrew Sh
"And you are invoking Einstien (sic) in an effort to prove the video and premise of this thread as false. Einstien (sic) felt the same way about the childish god of the bible as many including myself feel. I got news for you Sab - your plan has royally backfired." - TooTired2Care
Well, TooTired2Care, I think Sabastious is entirely right to claim Einstein on his side in this debate, judging by the quote from the interview with him given by William Hermanns, the Nazi concentration camp survivor. So I wonder where the photo of the elephant comes from?
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The NEW New World Translation. Suggestions please.
by Andrew Sh ini'm hoping to produce a new new world translation of the bible and if you have any ideas i would appreciate your contributions.
the format is thus:-.
1. the book, chapter and verse.. 2. the king james version (authorised version) of the above in full.
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Andrew Sh
Acts 8:36-38
36: And as they went on their way they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptised?
37: And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38: And he commanded the chariot to stand still; and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. (KJV)
36: Now as they were going over the road, they came to a certain body of water, and the eunuch said: "Look! A body of water; what prevents me from getting baptized?"
37: -
38: With that he commanded the chariot to halt, and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. (NWT)
36: Now as they were down the road, they came to a certain body of water, and the eunuch said: "Look! A body of water; what prevents me from getting baptized?
37: And Philip said, Ok, but I've got some literature for you to read first, which will take you at least a month, then I have about eighty questions to ask you, and you must get them all correct, and after that, you need to get baptized at a big convention.
38: With that he commanded the chariot to halt, and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he showed him how a person gets baptized (* so he knew for when the time came what would happen) (+ See footnote). (New NWT)
(+ Footnote: We believe Philip must have asked him some questions before he was willing to even consider baptizing him. That is only sensible and common sense.)
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The NEW New World Translation. Suggestions please.
by Andrew Sh ini'm hoping to produce a new new world translation of the bible and if you have any ideas i would appreciate your contributions.
the format is thus:-.
1. the book, chapter and verse.. 2. the king james version (authorised version) of the above in full.
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Andrew Sh
Matthew 28:20 second part.
"And lo I am with you alway, even to the end of the world. Amen." (KJV)
"And look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." (NWT)
"And look! I am with YOU all the days, after 1914, until the end of this world. Amen." (New NWT)
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29
The NEW New World Translation. Suggestions please.
by Andrew Sh ini'm hoping to produce a new new world translation of the bible and if you have any ideas i would appreciate your contributions.
the format is thus:-.
1. the book, chapter and verse.. 2. the king james version (authorised version) of the above in full.
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Andrew Sh
Matthew 28:19
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (KJV)
"Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit" (NWT)
"Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the names of the Father and of the Son and of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society with holy spirit.(* See Footnote)" (New NWT)
(* Footnote - It is clear that from the passage that not all baptisms are going to be equally acceptable. The teaching must be the teaching given by Jehovah God. Since the Watchtower Bioble and Tract Society is the only channel of Jehovah's Truth it is right that we can now add this name to the names given. The Watchtower society did not exist in that name in the days of the New Testament, so obviously could not be included then. From the context, however, it is not only reasonable but required that this additional name be added to the list to remain in harmony with the original intent.)
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834
Christian Apologists - Please Watch This and Tell Us Why it is wrong?
by cantleave inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1bzp1wr234&feature=relmfu.
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Andrew Sh
' "If God created the material world, then shouldn't we hold him responsible for all the miseries and woes of mankind?"
"We could", Einstein answered seriously, "if man hadn't been endowed with a free will. Every action of man is a function of his own or someone else's will. If so many people hadn't submitted their will to that of the Nazi's, there would have been no concentration camps." '
From "Einstein and the Poet: In search of the Cosmic Man" by William Hermanns - (bottom of page 58, top of page 59)
Game, Set, and Match to Sabastious?
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834
Christian Apologists - Please Watch This and Tell Us Why it is wrong?
by cantleave inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1bzp1wr234&feature=relmfu.
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Andrew Sh
NewChapter,
I didn't expect you to be able to give a good answer and to define evil. You haven't disappointed me. That's why the argument is so old.
When it comes to the problem of suffering and the existence of evil, at least a Theist can give some answer, but an Atheist can only give an answer such as:"In a world where there is no God what do you expect?", "That is just the way it is", "Too bad", "That's just your bad luck" or "That's your problem". Fatalism is fine in theory, but in a suffering world the most atheism can offer to those who are being hurt is Bertrand Russell's "unyielding despair". (Blanchard, Does God believe in Atheists?, p551). There is no reason to anything, nor is there any justice; there is no God who is wise and loving and who has a plan; your suffering is meaningless, and you just have to get on with it. If you can't, then its just too bad.
What atheists reject is that belief in atheism is itself evil, even the greatest evil, because it opens the door to all other evils. This can be best illustrated by remembering the testimony of Richard Wurmbrand beingtortured and witnessing the torture of others in an Atheist prison in Romania:-
"What the communists have done to Christains surpasses... human understanding," wrote Wurmbrand. "I have seen communists whose faces while torturing believers shone with rapturous joy. They cried out while torturing the Christians, "We are the devil!" He called communism "a force of evil" that could only be countered by a greater spiritual force, "the Spirit of God." He added:
The communist torturers often [told me], "There is no god, no hereafter, no punishment for evil. We can do what we wish." I heard one torturer say, "I thank God in whom I don't believe, that I have lived to this hour when I can express all the evil in my heart." www.globalmuseumoncommunism.org/features/war_on_religion?page=2
The Roman Catholic Inquisition also indulged in torture, usually of Protestant believers. They also had no real faith in the God of the Bible, or love for Christ. Who can say they were really putting into practice the commands of Scripture or obeying the will of Christ? They were torturing Protestant believers because the Protestants were saying the Roman Catholic religion was not in accordance with Scripture.
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834
Christian Apologists - Please Watch This and Tell Us Why it is wrong?
by cantleave inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1bzp1wr234&feature=relmfu.
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Andrew Sh
Christian Apologists - Please watch this and tell us why it is wrong?
The video is titled "How God favours Evil" and is designed, I believe, to prove to us there is actually no God. It is a favourite idea from Atheism.
So on that basis I seek to answer it:-
1. To think you have shown that two things are unlikely to co-exist together, such as the existence of God and the existence of evil, is very different from proving the two cannot co-exist. It is not proof at all.
2. "There is no God as described in the Bible because how could a God of love and total power stand idly by when evil is happening? Therefore there is no God of love and power. There is no God at all." - But how do you know it is evil? What is evil? Please define it. I have looked up "evil" in the English dictionary. It says "morally wrong or bad, wicked" for the primary definiton. Not very helpful is it? For a start, who decides what is morally wrong?
If there is no God, then there is no absolute truth and no absolute definition of evil either. If there is no God, then life is meaningless, people are meaningless, and all actions just happen. The video is just showing one meaningless life form being violent against another meaningless life form, and how can anyone say it is intrinsically evil? Who decides? If you deny the existence of God then all actions are essentially morally neutral. There are no absolute standards of morality. As someone at my previous workplace once said "There is no God and you and I are no more valuable than a fly." Violence against another human being is then no different from violence against a fly.
So, logically, the argument is self-refuting. If there is no God then there is no evil either. We cannot live by such a belief. If God does not exist then there is no means by which to determine what is evil in order to condemn it.
3. The mere fact that evil does exist is itself an evidence for the existence of God. The problem of evil requires that God exists. As Alvin Plantinga claims there is a theistic argument from evil, and it is at least as strong as the anti-theistic argument from evil:-
A - If God does not exist, transcendental, objective values of good and evil do not exist.
B - Evil does exist.
C - Therefore objective values exist, and some things are really, basically, fundamentally bad.
D - Therefore God exists.
4. The existence of evil in society is an evidence for the truth of the Bible that "all have sinned and fall shortof the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) and that "the heart is deceitful above all things and desparately wicked" (Jeremiah 17:9).
5. If God were to stop all evil, like Superman would, then He would have to stop all of us from living, "for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth" (Genesis 8:21). All of us are only evil all the time, when measured in the scales of God's standards: He charges even the angels with folly (Job 4:18).
6. God has solved the problem of evil, He gave His only Son to take the punishment for our sins on the cross. This is the beginning of the solution: the final Day of Judgement will be the consumation: when those who have believed shall be transported to where there is no more evil, and those who have rejected the Son shall be given their choice.
7. I don't believe we can understand everything about the God of the Bible or his ways with mankind. (Deuteronomy 29:29) "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong unto us and our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."
Certainly this is true when we consider how He allows evil. But just because we cannot understand everything is no reason to abandon belief altogether of things about God that we do know. To deny what we do know on the basis of things which we do not know is bad logic. I know that there is a God and that He is the God of the Bible. Just becaus eI do not know everything is no reason to stop believing in Him.
I have been reading "Does God believe in Atheists?" by John Blanchard. It is 655 pages. No self-respecting Atheist should be without it.
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The NEW New World Translation. Suggestions please.
by Andrew Sh ini'm hoping to produce a new new world translation of the bible and if you have any ideas i would appreciate your contributions.
the format is thus:-.
1. the book, chapter and verse.. 2. the king james version (authorised version) of the above in full.
-
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Andrew Sh
Galatians 3:26-29
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptised into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (KJV)
" Y OU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus." (NWT)
"YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. For all of YOU who were baptised into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman (* - See footnote), there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus." (New NWT)
(* Footnote - Note this obviously does not include the faithful and discreeet slave class, else this verse would not agree with other passages of Scripture.)
The committee have decided to leave this verse just as it was because it will help add to the confusion of the rank and file to leave certain things in. Then they will just realize they cannot understand the Bible without the help of the "faithful and discreet slave class".